Comments on: Massacre in Chiah http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/ Mon, 05 Oct 2009 04:08:45 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Tikun Olam-תקון עולם: Make the World a Better Place » Chiah Massacre, Highest Death Toll of Lebanon War http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2068 Tikun Olam-תקון עולם: Make the World a Better Place » Chiah Massacre, Highest Death Toll of Lebanon War Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:05:56 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2068 [...] First we had Qana where 28 are confirmed dead (14 are missing there but it is still too dangerous to search the rubble for the remaining bodies). Now we have a new massacre du jour. Chiah, where the AP reports at least 30 bodies have been recovered after an IAF airstrike on two homes demolished them. That would make it the current ‘winner’ in the IAF ‘death sweepstakes.’ Here’s an earlier report from Blogging the Middle East which first alerted me to the story: Some hours ago two residential buildings in Chiah were struck. Chiah is pretty close to Beirut, it’s a suburb, but closer to central Beirut than the suburbs that had so far been the focus of Israeli attacks. It’s to the east of Camille Cham’oun Stadium, north of Ghbeire, adjacent to Ain al-Remmene, and south of Furn al-Chebbek. The building collapsed. So far at least 20 bodies have been pulled out, and many more are missing. [...] [...] First we had Qana where 28 are confirmed dead (14 are missing there but it is still too dangerous to search the rubble for the remaining bodies). Now we have a new massacre du jour. Chiah, where the AP reports at least 30 bodies have been recovered after an IAF airstrike on two homes demolished them. That would make it the current ‘winner’ in the IAF ‘death sweepstakes.’ Here’s an earlier report from Blogging the Middle East which first alerted me to the story: Some hours ago two residential buildings in Chiah were struck. Chiah is pretty close to Beirut, it’s a suburb, but closer to central Beirut than the suburbs that had so far been the focus of Israeli attacks. It’s to the east of Camille Cham’oun Stadium, north of Ghbeire, adjacent to Ain al-Remmene, and south of Furn al-Chebbek. The building collapsed. So far at least 20 bodies have been pulled out, and many more are missing. [...]

]]> By: PD http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2046 PD Tue, 08 Aug 2006 21:19:29 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2046 E: The question that I have is why, if Israel is such a good and friendly neighbor, did they have such a sophisticated plan of destruction in place for Lebanon(and it is clear they did) which they have carried out over the last four weeks? The disproportionateness of the Israeli response to the seizing of the two Israeli soldiers (with the deaths that accompanied it) and the failure to use established diplomatic means is, from my standpoint, mind-boggling. Given the other territorial issues involved Israel and its Arab neighbors, the failure to understand Anarchistan's issues seems to be short-sighted. If Israel is allowed to level much of southern Lebanon to "protect" itself, there is likely to be hell to pay in the long run. The large rocket attacks from hezbollah, of course, came only after Israel's initial forays. It is my understanding that only one rocket was launched from Lebanon into Israel in the July days before July 13th--and that was on July 12th, presumably as a diversionary measure relating to the seizing of the soldiers. Tired: The point you make is precisely why the Lebanese government cannot allow business as usual with Hezbollah--and why the suggestion that they will only be concerned with short-term fixes is nonsense. Without some durable commitment (in the form of at least neutralizing Hezbollah) the inflow of capital necessary to rebuild Lebanon will not be forthcoming. But if developments ensue such that Hezbollah has no genuine stake in the rebuilding of Lebanon, then all bets are off. It would seem to me that the more successful external forces (such as Israel) are in destroying Hezbollah, the less likely Hezbollah is to have a stake and the more likely Lebanon will go down the tubes. Already the devastation to the civilian Shia population has been devastating. The key, as you suggest--consistent with Siniora' commitment, is to try to re-define the situation with Hezbollah. E:

The question that I have is why, if Israel is such a good and friendly neighbor, did they have such a sophisticated plan of destruction in place for Lebanon(and it is clear they did) which they have carried out over the last four weeks? The disproportionateness of the Israeli response to the seizing of the two Israeli soldiers (with the deaths that accompanied it) and the failure to use established diplomatic means is, from my standpoint, mind-boggling.

Given the other territorial issues involved Israel and its Arab neighbors, the failure to understand Anarchistan’s issues seems to be short-sighted. If Israel is allowed to level much of southern Lebanon to “protect” itself, there is likely to be hell to pay in the long run. The large rocket attacks from hezbollah, of course, came only after Israel’s initial forays. It is my understanding that only one rocket was launched from Lebanon into Israel in the July days before July 13th–and that was on July 12th, presumably as a diversionary measure relating to the seizing of the
soldiers.

Tired:
The point you make is precisely why the Lebanese government cannot allow business as usual with Hezbollah–and why the suggestion that they will only be concerned with short-term fixes is nonsense. Without some durable commitment (in the form of at least neutralizing Hezbollah) the inflow of capital necessary to rebuild Lebanon will not be forthcoming. But if developments ensue such that Hezbollah has no genuine stake in the rebuilding of Lebanon, then all bets are off. It would seem to me that the more successful external forces (such as Israel) are in destroying Hezbollah, the less likely Hezbollah is to have a stake and the more likely Lebanon will go down the tubes. Already the devastation to the civilian Shia population has been devastating. The key, as you suggest–consistent with Siniora’ commitment, is to try to re-define the situation with
Hezbollah.

]]> By: tired http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2040 tired Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:31:39 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2040 If Hizubllah will not and can not be disarmed, don't bother repairing any of the buildings or bridges as we will just go through thtis all again in a year or 18 months. Hizbullah, as a resistance or terror movement only has relevance if there is something to resist or terrorize. If Hizbullah maintains arms that is because it feels the need to use them. If Hizbullah is part of the Lebanese government, it would not need arms. It would have the Lebanese army as its arms. So you are probably right. Hizbullah will likely not disarm.. And Lebanon and Israel will be murdering each other again all too soon. If Hizubllah will not and can not be disarmed, don’t bother repairing any of the buildings or bridges as we will just go through thtis all again in a year or 18 months.

Hizbullah, as a resistance or terror movement only has relevance if there is something to resist or terrorize. If Hizbullah maintains arms that is because it feels the need to use them. If Hizbullah is part of the Lebanese government, it would not need arms. It would have the Lebanese army as its arms.

So you are probably right. Hizbullah will likely not disarm.. And Lebanon and Israel will be murdering each other again all too soon.

]]> By: Anarchistian http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2024 Anarchistian Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:20:07 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2024 <b>Israel left Lebanon in 2000 hoping never to return. </b> Israel left Lebanon in 2000 with a humiliated ego. And we all know what happens when Israel's ego is humiliated. Its response to the issue of providing the minefield maps - a clear violation of international law - is one case in point. Its readiness to put into practice its long-drawn plans for the destruction of Lebanon (you just can't claim to have "good intentions" when you constantly send drones, a clear violation of the ceasefire, throughout the neighbouring country to take pictures of key infrastructure) is another case in point. <b>It will be more difficult for Iran to build a forward base near our border if Lebanon’s infrastructure is destroyed. </b> Ohhh, so what is your suggestion - turn Lebanon into a no-man's land (or prevent the Lebanese from rebuilding it), so that you can sleep well knowing that there won't be any possibility (as opposed to real threat) that Iran would "advance" to your border? Yea, that makes sense! And then you claim you want peace? HezbAllah will not and cannot be disarmed. If the past month is any indication. But of course, you can't see beyond your ego. Israel left Lebanon in 2000 hoping never to return.
Israel left Lebanon in 2000 with a humiliated ego. And we all know what happens when Israel’s ego is humiliated. Its response to the issue of providing the minefield maps – a clear violation of international law – is one case in point. Its readiness to put into practice its long-drawn plans for the destruction of Lebanon (you just can’t claim to have “good intentions” when you constantly send drones, a clear violation of the ceasefire, throughout the neighbouring country to take pictures of key infrastructure) is another case in point.

It will be more difficult for Iran to build a forward base near our border if Lebanon’s infrastructure is destroyed.
Ohhh, so what is your suggestion – turn Lebanon into a no-man’s land (or prevent the Lebanese from rebuilding it), so that you can sleep well knowing that there won’t be any possibility (as opposed to real threat) that Iran would “advance” to your border? Yea, that makes sense! And then you claim you want peace?

HezbAllah will not and cannot be disarmed. If the past month is any indication. But of course, you can’t see beyond your ego.

]]> By: e http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2023 e Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:00:25 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2023 Israel left Lebanon in 2000 hoping never to return. HA forced us back in. It is clear to all Israelis that it is a proxy of Iran that wants to destroy Israel. We are not threatning Lebanon. We are telling you as it is. It will be more difficult for Iran to build a forward base near our border if Lebanon's infrastructure is destroyed. You want to keep ignoring this fact, fine with me. At this stage, HA is not defending Lebanon. Just look at the results on the ground. How can you keep denying reality? You rationalize by thinking Israel wants to take Lebanese land, but this is not so. Since we can't convince you of this, I guess the war will go on until HA is disarmed whatever the consequences for Lebanon. Israel left Lebanon in 2000 hoping never to return. HA forced us back in. It is clear to all Israelis that it is a proxy of Iran that wants to destroy Israel. We are not threatning Lebanon. We are telling you as it is. It will be more difficult for Iran to build a forward base near our border if Lebanon’s infrastructure is destroyed. You want to keep ignoring this fact, fine with me. At this stage, HA is not defending Lebanon. Just look at the results on the ground. How can you keep denying reality? You rationalize by thinking Israel wants to take Lebanese land, but this is not so. Since we can’t convince you of this, I guess the war will go on until HA is disarmed whatever the consequences for Lebanon.

]]> By: Anarchistian http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2018 Anarchistian Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:57:17 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2018 #6: The numbers are now suspect? Oh, I see, but of course, the information provided by the Israelis is "correct" (as always, like they claimed they had captured Bint Jbeil but only hold... Maroun al-Ras)... and of course, the cold-blooded murder of one child is "better" than the cold-blooded murder of 20 children... But then again, only for your own sick purposes - i.e. "proving" that the information is "fake", rather than reasons of conscience and morality. After all, you and your ilk think that if these civilians support HezbAllah (of course, you refuse to look at the actual reason for such support, because that might just find Israel GUILTY of mass-murder and violations of international law, which would put it on the same level as, if not lower than, HezbAllah), then they deserve what they're getting. Of course, that is not to say that all the victims were supporters of HezbAllah. Many were not. And not all were Shi'ites either. Actually, HezbAllah isn't the only one fighting against Israel right at this moment - there are many Communists who have taken up arms and are fighting in the south. Israel has managed to revive the resistance role of an increasingly unpopular militia which would've been incorporated into the army soon enough if a good package deal was agreed to, which was being discussed. But as usual, Israel has to ruin it all. You know what? I think Israel loves extremists contrary to the claim that it wants voices of moderation. Or, it's too stupid to realize (when the whole world has realized it) that its actions are making moderates irrelevant. Israel wanted to strengthen HezbAllah's domestic standing in Lebanon; it did so intentionally. It did so for many reasons, chief among them, the destruction of Lebanon, which it has achieved to a very great extent, and years of instability and ("hopefully", from Israel's perspective) sectarian strife. The Israeli problem is mostly - in my opinion - domestic. It stems from years of incitement against Arabs taught in schools, from turning racist, land-expropriating settler politics into tales of legendary heroism, from the impotency of government after government in Israel at facing the conditions that previous governments have created, from the cowardice of its leadership to face the challenges and constraints of public opinion, from the stupidity and pure thirst for blood and expansionism of some of its leaders, and let's not forget, from Israel's water needs. Israel CANNOT survive without the waters of the Litani. THAT is a fact. #6: The numbers are now suspect? Oh, I see, but of course, the information provided by the Israelis is “correct” (as always, like they claimed they had captured Bint Jbeil but only hold… Maroun al-Ras)… and of course, the cold-blooded murder of one child is “better” than the cold-blooded murder of 20 children… But then again, only for your own sick purposes – i.e. “proving” that the information is “fake”, rather than reasons of conscience and morality. After all, you and your ilk think that if these civilians support HezbAllah (of course, you refuse to look at the actual reason for such support, because that might just find Israel GUILTY of mass-murder and violations of international law, which would put it on the same level as, if not lower than, HezbAllah), then they deserve what they’re getting. Of course, that is not to say that all the victims were supporters of HezbAllah. Many were not. And not all were Shi’ites either. Actually, HezbAllah isn’t the only one fighting against Israel right at this moment – there are many Communists who have taken up arms and are fighting in the south. Israel has managed to revive the resistance role of an increasingly unpopular militia which would’ve been incorporated into the army soon enough if a good package deal was agreed to, which was being discussed. But as usual, Israel has to ruin it all. You know what? I think Israel loves extremists contrary to the claim that it wants voices of moderation. Or, it’s too stupid to realize (when the whole world has realized it) that its actions are making moderates irrelevant. Israel wanted to strengthen HezbAllah’s domestic standing in Lebanon; it did so intentionally. It did so for many reasons, chief among them, the destruction of Lebanon, which it has achieved to a very great extent, and years of instability and (“hopefully”, from Israel’s perspective) sectarian strife. The Israeli problem is mostly – in my opinion – domestic. It stems from years of incitement against Arabs taught in schools, from turning racist, land-expropriating settler politics into tales of legendary heroism, from the impotency of government after government in Israel at facing the conditions that previous governments have created, from the cowardice of its leadership to face the challenges and constraints of public opinion, from the stupidity and pure thirst for blood and expansionism of some of its leaders, and let’s not forget, from Israel’s water needs. Israel CANNOT survive without the waters of the Litani. THAT is a fact.

]]> By: Anarchistian http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2015 Anarchistian Tue, 08 Aug 2006 06:35:35 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2015 So, are we to believe that this photo provided by the IDF, of an alleged HezbAllah outpost being destroyed, is not photoshopped? Pay particular attention to the pink areas (obviously someone got cute with the clone and brush) and where the unnatural transition from it to the blue of the sky, which is unnaturally darker around the edges than overall. <a href="http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/files/2006/08/capt3acdf4ffbd944d4e9e46221b3e1407c7mideast_israel_lebanon_fighting_jrl127.jpg" rel="nofollow">Click to see pic </a> So, are we to believe that this photo provided by the IDF, of an alleged HezbAllah outpost being destroyed, is not photoshopped? Pay particular attention to the pink areas (obviously someone got cute with the clone and brush) and where the unnatural transition from it to the blue of the sky, which is unnaturally darker around the edges than overall.

Click to see pic

]]> By: Anarchistian http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2014 Anarchistian Tue, 08 Aug 2006 06:30:02 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2014 #5 : the official figure of the Chiah bombing is 20 dead. #5 : the official figure of the Chiah bombing is 20 dead.

]]> By: Anarchistian http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2011 Anarchistian Tue, 08 Aug 2006 06:02:31 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2011 <b>How then is HA defending Lebanon?</b> Do you sincerely believe that Israel would've remained where it is now if HezbAllah did not exist, or were disarmed? And don't come up with a "if there were no HezbAllah such a thing would've never happened"; we all know what happened in 1982 when there was no HezbAllah. By the same token, why are the Israelis all of a sudden not concerned at all with the issue of Palestinian weapons in Lebanon? Because that's an "internal issue"? Of course not, because if that is, then so is HezbAllah, since there are armed Palestinian factions in the south. No, I think the reason Israel wants HezbAllah disarmed is that in case of such a tiny "provocation" it can picnic in Lebanon however it wants. We have all seen that Israel has had and continues to have no respect for Lebanese sovereignty. We have all seen its daily violations in the past, despite the fact that they were unprovoked. How then is HA defending Lebanon?
Do you sincerely believe that Israel would’ve remained where it is now if HezbAllah did not exist, or were disarmed? And don’t come up with a “if there were no HezbAllah such a thing would’ve never happened”; we all know what happened in 1982 when there was no HezbAllah. By the same token, why are the Israelis all of a sudden not concerned at all with the issue of Palestinian weapons in Lebanon? Because that’s an “internal issue”? Of course not, because if that is, then so is HezbAllah, since there are armed Palestinian factions in the south. No, I think the reason Israel wants HezbAllah disarmed is that in case of such a tiny “provocation” it can picnic in Lebanon however it wants. We have all seen that Israel has had and continues to have no respect for Lebanese sovereignty. We have all seen its daily violations in the past, despite the fact that they were unprovoked.

]]> By: Stellaa http://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2010 Stellaa Tue, 08 Aug 2006 06:00:28 +0000 https://meastpolitics.wordpress.com/2006/08/08/massacre-in-chiah/#comment-2010 Anarchistian...bravo. I guess Israel is doing as good a job as the Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan. Anarchistian…bravo. I guess Israel is doing as good a job as the Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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